Breaking Through – Bonding With Vintage
Posted by Conley Woods
March 10, 2010 | 
41 comments
Breaking Through: Bonding With Vintage
Last weekend I had the opportunity to sling some power around. Vintage is awesome and unique for me, in that it is the only format I can actually enjoy despite losing. Granted, winning is always better, but the format is always fun regardless. Part of that is definitely the community surrounding Vintage, as nearly all of the guys I have met playing the format are pretty awesome. With those formalities out of the way, lets get into the deck I ended up running.
As is traditional with me, I was not about to take some stock list into the tournament. For one thing, this tournament was a non-proxy event, meaning some of the decks that would show up would be ones off of the radar, and therefore not impacted by typical Vintage strategies. Things like Goblins or Mono-Black are not the types of decks someone prepares for with there Tezzeret or Stax deck. Sure there would be plenty of powered opponents as well, meaning something that could attack both sides of the coin would be needed.
This did open the door for a little innovation though. One issue I have with Vintage is the lack, or at least slow progression, of innovation in the format. I am not sure if this is because players get attached to a deck, or attached to some of the expensive cards they have invested in, but new, viable decks, come out so infrequently in the format. It seems like the only motivating factor for innovation is the ebb and flow of the banned and restricted list, which leads to lazy deckbuilding.
If the players of a format anticipate that the only new decks and new strategies come out of the changes made from Wizards, either from the B&R list, or new set releases, they tend to miss out on plenty of other ideas along the way. With the tens of thousands of cards available in Vintage, new strategies should be abundant and at least some of those should be good, just by reconfiguring combinations of existing cards, yet this rarely happens.
I decided to at least try out my theory, coming up with the following:
Since Crop Rotation was removed form the restricted list, no deck has really looked to take advantage of its power level. Some Stax builds used it as additional [card mishras workshop]Workshops[/card], but on the whole, it has gone unused. For this list, I wanted to pair the impressive tutoring ability of Crop Rotation with the powerful but subtle Vinelasher Kudzu, who typically gets overlooked in favor of Goyf. Granted, this is for good reason most of the time, but here, the plant is just plain better.
In addition, I wanted to utilize the power of Counterbalance in Vintage. I have done so before, in lists like Bomberman, but usually that would just fall into place once there were Trinket Mages and Tops in the list. For this list, I forcefully inserted the Counterbalances to add an additional engine and to give any of the combo decks in the room trouble. With Fastbond, Counterbalance, Selkie, or Kudzu online, the game could then turn into a protect the queen strategy, just hiding behind the engine that is up and running.
Generally, Counterbalance gets overlooked in Vintage due to the higher degree of varying mana costs. Even the combo decks run 0s through 6s. Still, a great density of spells are focused between 1 and 3, which made the engine worthwhile, at least to try out in a smaller tournament setting, as opposed to something like Vintage Worlds.
The last important thing to decide on, when working on a Gro style deck such as this, is a draw engine. With the restrictions to Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge, the options have become more limited recently than one would assume. Intuition plus Accumulated Knowledge is a perfectly acceptable draw engine, but does not lend itself to this sort of deck. I looked at Dark Confidant for the solution, but found that Black diluted the mana base too much. Instead, I turned to another creature that has recently seen a ton of play in Vintage: Cold-Eyed Selkie. Without Noble Hierarch or other Exalted triggers to pump him up, the Selkie would only be a new-age Ophidian, but that snake saw plenty of play during his time too. I did manage to sneak a Pendelhaven in the deck though, which, when coupled with Fastbond, was able to mimic Exalted pretty well. On top of that, the ability to protect against Darkblast or Fire//Ice was a nice bonus that Exalted can’t do so well.
Because lands tend to take the center stage when you are building with Crop Rotation, lets look at some of the more common interactions from the mana makers.
Fastbond + Oboro, Palace in the Clouds + Vinelasher Kudzu
This, in effect, is Channel + Fireball, but can also be scaled down much more effectively as well. While it doesn’t come up every game or anything, the ability to win a game out of no where was a nice thing to include and caught more than one opponent off guard.
Horizon Canopy + Crucible of Worlds (+Fastbond)
Basically a poor man’s Library of Alexandria. I originally had Library in here, but found it to be a lackluster Crop Rotation target beyond turn 1 and usually only found myself with 4 or 5 cards in hand, unless Selkie plus Pendelhaven was active, in which case I didn’t need the Library. The Canopy on the other hand, was a sufficient dual land and was a nice target for late Crop Rotations. I managed the full 3 card combo 1 time on the day, and let me tell you that drawing 5 cards a turn was pretty sweet.
Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds (+Fastbond)
Not much to say here as this one has been played out plenty in the past. The inclusion of Wasteland was not possible due to the 3 color mana base and specialty lands. I had some in the board, but found them to be nearly useless there.
Crop Rotation + Halimar Depths + Counterbalance
Just another synergy with Counterbalance that also happens to be fine on its own. I tutored up a Depths in every match on the day and was never upset by it. Ponder is good it turns out.
Beyond those synergies though, the deck is fairly straightforward despite presenting a ton of choices and options over the course of a game as most Vintage decks are known to do. You basically look to take the control route for the most part, except in the control mirror, where your Kudzus and Selkies can pull away fast while the opponent messes around trying to assemble a Tinker win or a Time Vault win.
The sideboard is definitely not tuned to accommodate a traditional Vintage metagame, but as I noted before, the lack of power in about a third to half of the decks in the room made me reach for anti-Fish and aggro cards, like Wrath of God. For the aggressive matchups, Counterbalance is enough to stop threats once the turn 4 or 5 threshold is reached, so Wrath effects were a perfect way to clean up the mess that made it down before your counter wall. Your Kudzus also tend to get larger than anything that the aggressive player has, minus the occasional Phyrexian Dreadnought, which is another nice interaction. Beyond the sweepers, the Tabernacle also comes in. I expected it to perform better than it actually did, but it was fine for the most part.
Karakas was intended to be a road block against the multiple Dark Depths decks that were expected to show up while also playing foil to Iona out of Oath. The biggest thing it managed to do on the day though was deal with Gaddock Teeg. With 4 spells coming in to deal with creatures that just could not be cast under a Teeg, Karakas made for the perfect Crop Rotation target, as it even tapped for White, helping out on the WW mana costs.
All of the other cards are pretty self explanatory and were chosen to deal with multiple decks when possible. Seeds of Innocence for example, put a hurt on Stax while also knocking out an Inkwell Leviathan.
The deck was quite good for me on the day, but could also use some tweaking going forward. Regardless, it managed to snag me a finals split for a Mox Sapphire and [card mishras workshop]Mishra’s Workshop[/card], so no complaining can be had. The bigger take away though, was establishing that Vintage is an unmined wealth of decks and technology. While a few dedicated souls may be working on the format, most seem to be content with playing the staples.
Legacy was in this very state until it started to garner attention from the tournament crowd. Goblins for example, was the best deck for the first 2 or 3 years of Legacy’s creation simply because players were not looking for other outlets. With more Grand Prixs and cash tourneys being given to the format, Goblins have actually fallen out of the ranks of tier 1 even. A pretty big change with just more play being the catalyst.
This brings up the hot topic of reprints. Up front, I must say I am a fan of allowing reprints. As the game has survived over the years, the number of pure collectors has gone down in favor of players. Because of this, I believe the health of a format, and thus the health of the game, should be the priority over keeping some card insanely valuable. That said, I don’t even think reprints will hurt the value of older cards like Power or dual lands!
A card’s price, for the most part, is dictated by how much play it sees. If a rare card, like a Baneslayer Angel, or Black Lotus, or Tarmogoyf, sees a ton of play, it naturally will go up in value. Due to the limited number of cards available for Vintage however, there is also a limit to how many people can play the format. Black Lotus and its brethren, would only go down once reprinted, if some insane amount of Power was printed that exceeded the potential player base ten fold or something ridiculous. Even then, this would likely only impact the value of the unlimited Power, as the Beta and Alpha are still going to be sought out by players looking to pimp their decks. The fact that there is a non-foil Baneslayer Angel does not make the foil one any less expensive. Players who seek that sort of thing always drive the market regardless of alternatives.
Basically, with a reprinting of powerful, old cards, Vintage would likely see a rebirth and have more people playing it than ever, keeping cards approximately valued the same, or even more! In addition, with Legacy being a supported format now, it only makes sense to reprint things like Imperial Recruiter, Grim Tutor, and Force of Will to allow more players the freedom to play the deck of their choosing. The game must be defended and supported first and foremost. It is not as though collectors have been forgotten about, as things like From the Vault have been directed at them specifically. Ironically enough, that product for which collectors have enjoyed is made up entirely of reprints!
We cannot let the past of the game fade away just to keep the prices of certain cards high, especially when reprints do not automatically hinder those prices at all. The game is meant to be played, including those [card black lotus]Black Loti[/card] and Ancestral Recalls. If we fail to support the older formats by allowing them to run ashore with a lack of cards, we are losing a valuable piece of Magic in the process. I understand it is a tricky and deeper subject than I have laid out, but my opinion remains the same regardless. Thanks for reading.
Conley Woods
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About This Author
Conley Woods
Conley is known for his love of rogue decks, and his unconventional deckbuilding technique has resulted in numerous success stories. He made Top 8 at Grand Prix Oakland 2010, was the Grand Prix Tampa 2009 finalist, and made Top 4 of Pro Tour Honolulu 2009. &hellip
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s sadler says: March 10, 2010 @ 9:28 pm
huzzah!
Jethro says: March 10, 2010 @ 9:51 pm
“Even then, this would likely only impact the value of the unlimited Power, as the Beta and Alpha are still going to be sought out by players looking to pimp there decks.”
Their decks my man, their decks. Bad editor! Bad! =D
Personally I’ve never even thought of stepping into legacy because the price tag to start collecting seems massive. Do you think you could make a budget legacy list? It might be worth it to expand the player base for legacy as a whole if you could come up with a cheap deck that could compete with the power house decks.
TradeMonger says: March 10, 2010 @ 11:23 pm
@Mr. Woods
It’s nice to read an article about Vintage for once. I’m trying to get into the format myself, but it’s hard due to the lack of information (but mostly due to my laziness in locating info). I’ve also long been dreaming of building a similar deck to yours, albeit more focused on the Cruicible/Lands/Fastbond facet, and with the knowledge that Crop Rotation is unrestricted, the deck may be a reality.
@Jethro
The price tag may indeed be massive, but most of the staples that are required hold their value quite well. Like many other people will tell you, duals, FoW, fetches and the like will pretty much always retain their value if not go up. So the investment is more than sound. The earlier you get into Legacy the more you save.
If you really want budget though, there are a number of solutions available. And when you say budget I am assuming you mean decks that are comparatively cheaper than the other decks out there at this time and not something like a limit cap.
Either way, Merfolk, LED-less Dredge, Charbelcher are some possible budget solutions. They are all extremely powerful decks capable of competing with other top decks.
Compared with keeping up with Type 2, Legacy is actually more affordable than you might think in the long run.
John Nieft says: March 10, 2010 @ 11:30 pm
Have you ever considered changing your picture on this?
Max says: March 10, 2010 @ 11:56 pm
Awesome to see someone writing about vintage on CF. Go Conley!
Brady says: March 11, 2010 @ 12:43 am
IMO getting into budget legacy is not worth it. You have to think of dual lands as an investment, not a cost. They will still be worth a lot when you want to sell them.
Lucas Siow says: March 11, 2010 @ 1:12 am
I don’t think its quite fair to Say that Vintage is open to a world of design when you admittedly had success in tournament where people were not playing optimized decks.
Which isn’t to say that Vintage isn’t open or completely awesome (See David Ochoa’s recent Vintage lists for a start) or that your deck isn’t cool. Its just hard to interpret/believe results which come from tournament where card Availability is the most restrictive constraint.
Soldar says: March 11, 2010 @ 1:30 am
A quick rebuttal about the decline of Goblins in Legacy. I would attribute it more to the rise of Zoo with the printing of Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage, rather than the lack of innovation. While playing Goblins, the Zoo matchup is too lopsided and common enough to knock you out of contention on its own in a reasonable sized tournament.
Eldariel says: March 11, 2010 @ 1:38 am
“Legacy was in this very state until it started to garner attention from the tournament crowd. Goblins for example, was the best deck for the first 2 or 3 years of Legacy's creation simply because players were not looking for other outlets. With more Grand Prixs and cash tourneys being given to the format, Goblins have actually fallen out of the ranks of tier 1 even. A pretty big change with just more play being the catalyst.”
This isn’t really true; Goblins was THE top deck for a reason. People were brewing decks with sufficient hate to have a chance in the MU, but things like Rifter, UGr Threshold and company still lost to it occasionally and had to dedicate a ton of resources to beating it, while Combo had too much issues in a field of Forces. They gave up in too many other match-ups to truly be able to dominate the field to sufficient degree to keep Goblins from trouncing all over the domain.
What changed things was the printing of Tarmogoyf; it gave aggro/control the tool to simultaneously control the Goblin-horde, and win before Goblins’ superior card advantage ends the game. As Goblins generally can’t remove it, Tarmogoyf combined with some removal for Piledrivers and the like generally stymied their attack entirely and quickly was joined by others to stomp before Ringleader/Matron nonsense puts the game away anyways. So yeah, in spite of all the flak it gets, we have Tarmogoyf to thank for dethroning Goblins.
Conley says: March 11, 2010 @ 2:22 am
I did not develop my opinion of Vintage innovation from a single tournament. I have been playing competitive Vintage longer than I have played any other format competitively. That opinion comes form years of seeing stagnant metagames and pet decks ruling a format where innovation takes a back seat for the most part
Runco says: March 11, 2010 @ 3:35 am
The plural of lotus is generally accepted to be lotuses
Someguy says: March 11, 2010 @ 4:50 am
Yea we have Tarmogoyf and other undercosted green men to thank for the slaying of Goblins. Why couldn’t they cap Tarmogoyf at 3/4 or 4/5. Would he still be playable as a 2cc for that power / toughness? HELL yea.
Justin D-Z says: March 11, 2010 @ 6:29 am
@Jethro
Echoing the other comments, I’ve been trying to get local players in to Legacy (mostly due to my fond memories of playing when Revised came out) and they always argue the price tag. I counter-argue that if they play a few seasons of Standard, they’ve likely already spent the money to build a non-budget Legacy deck and a majority of what they acquired will be re-usable as the format shifts as long as they make a good choice and like the color. Mono-colored decks mostly avoid dual lands and fetchlands, which helps. A play set of Wastelands, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf = about half the decks in the format these days
Now, I’ve been suckered in to playing both Legacy and Standard and am doing a passable job of avoiding Extended. But the core expensive Legacy cards for me have actually only gone up in value. Last season, I just borrowed a Kithkin deck for a bit when I started playing again because I could tell I’d likely never use the cards again
GUnit says: March 11, 2010 @ 6:42 am
What Eladariel and Someguy said.
Goblins hasn’t been tier 1 for a while now, whereas legacy has really just started getting popular in the last year. Tarmogoyf was a big part of it, and the continued printing of superior creatures since then (nacatl, pride mage, KotR, rhox war monk, progenitals, tombstalker, etc.) has contributed as well.
The only decks that have really emerged since the format became more popular are NO bant and reanimator, and reanimator pretty much built itself once entomb was unbanned.
RE: Vintage things: Cool deck, excellent article as per usual.
The Wolf says: March 11, 2010 @ 7:31 am
Conley,
It's really good to see people giving vintage some press time. IMO the reason there is not much innovation in vintage is that the format is so much more about being good with your deck. Because there is no rotation, playing with a deck you are very good with is almost always better then playing with a deck you are worse with but might have an edge that week.
Thanks for the article.
butters says: March 11, 2010 @ 9:03 am
If I understand your argument correctly, you believe that the demand for power cards is relatively elastic; an increase in the amount of power cards printed would only cause a slight decrease in price. Assuming that you have correctly estimated the price elasticity of the power cards, you ignore the possibility that the demand curve could shift with a new printing of power cards.
Consider the circumstances under which Wizards would reprint the power cards. Realistically, I do not think they would do so simply to appease the current pool of Vintage players. The only circumstance in which I can envision them doing so is if they want to expand the Vintage community. In this case, their reprinting of the power cards would likely be part of a larger initiative to get more people playing Vintage. This would raise the demand for cards used in the Vintage format, including power cards. When the demand for power cards rises, their price rises. If Wizards was interested in sustaining participation in the Vintage community, they would have to lower the price of the power cards to make the format more accessible. So, they would have to flood the market with power cards which would cause a drop in the price of the ‘older cards’. It is worth noting that since Alpha and Beta cards derive a unique value from being originals, their price would be less affected.
Overall, a good read. I respectfully think some of your assumptions about the reprint market are unrealistic.
Huck101 says: March 11, 2010 @ 9:07 am
Conley,
Thanks for the article and as always great read, I respect the Vintage scene and feel that it is actually because of the “price” to get into the format that pushes a lot of players away. I’ve been playing since Revised and back when duals were “abundant” in my area, the increased player base now just thins the abundance down to pretty much nil since most players now will not trade/sell their vintage cards since it would be too costly to get them back. Without the printing of more of the older stuff, it’s going to be a long and expensive time for most newcomers to get into the format.
MH says: March 11, 2010 @ 9:32 am
Eldariel basically beat me to the punch. Goblins wasn’t dethroned by people finally paying attention, it was a series of blows rained down on it, mainly by new printings.
The first, which basically no one remembers, was the widespread use of Empty the Warrens in both TES and Belcher. The reason no one remembers this was because the hype over ETW basically only lasted a month, until…
…Flash happened. Yeah, goblins didn’t beat Flash.
Then, in the post-Flash world, Tarmogoyf put the brakes on goblins, as described above. Goblins saw a little hope, in that Fanatic gave it a non-terrible G1 against the new dredge decks, but that didn’t make up for Tarmogoyf infiltrating every deck under the sun.
The event that really shattered goblins’ dreams was when Lorwyn block failed to deliver almost anything. Warren Weirding is very good, but goblins expected a whole lot more from a tribal block.
Then more and more good creatures were printed. Ad Nauseum was printed, enhancing Tendrils’ position in the format, which was bad news for goblins. Zoo became a real deck, instead of a Rancor-toting joke, and a real problem for goblins; and in reaction to zoo (and to some extent, Merfolk), Firespout started seeing significant play – critically, maindeck play, which really was the final nail. Previously, sweeper cards like Pyroclasm were too narrow to maindeck, but metagame developments and the third point of damage made sweepers (the best kind of card vs. goblins) a viable maindeck inclusion.
Basically, of all the changes to the format since 2006 or so, virtually NONE have been good for goblins. That is what led to its downfall, not “attention from the tournament crowd.”
Kaoru says: March 11, 2010 @ 10:02 am
“The fact that there is a non-foil Baneslayer Angel does not make the foil one any less expensive.”
This is the clearest and most concise explanation of why the Reserve List needs to die that I’ve ever read. I hope the right people are reading.
The rest of the article was great too, I love me some Crop Rotation
Nicholas Gulledge says: March 11, 2010 @ 10:44 am
unban goblin recruiter and let the shenanigans ensue.
Levi says: March 11, 2010 @ 10:47 am
The plural of lotus is lotuses. You’re thinking locus.
Conley says: March 11, 2010 @ 10:59 am
That was the editor’s doing, not my own
I had Lotuses in there actually lol
Chris Davis says: March 11, 2010 @ 11:22 am
I like the article Conley! Fun times hearing about a vintage Vintage idea like Gro. Selkie is an interesting draw mechanism, but I’m not sure if it’s better than playing a more fish-y creature like Trygon Predator. Regardless, nice work actually getting “Channel Fireball” into the article by talking about Oboro+Kudzu =P
Dis says: March 11, 2010 @ 11:28 am
conley is pure gas.
Blind Fremen says: March 11, 2010 @ 11:49 am
I agree with Conley on the reprinting issue. I also strongly believe that cards like Imperial Recruiter, Grim Tutor, and Force of Will should be reprinted. Heck, even if they were reprinted in a Standard-legal set, they would not drastically warp the metagame. Well I mean they WOULD, but they certainly wouldn’t be overpowered.
Jack says: March 11, 2010 @ 12:14 pm
Fun stuff!
ReAnimator says: March 11, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
In the decklist do you think black might be better than white?
Your only white maindeck card is Enlightened, why not just play Demonic and Vampiric in those slots?
You still get value out of Canopy, and Karakas is still a legitimate board card. You are already running a Bajuko bog too.
You could also upgrade the Aether spellbomb to a more versatile bounce spell with the black tutors.
While you are at it Confidant might just be better than Selkie as you are already running Tops. You can still run a lot of creature hate in the board if you go black. I guess the danger is you are spreading your mana across three colours then.
Out of curiosity did you ever feel like you wanted goyf in here? If your meta had a bunch of budget and creature decks it seems pretty good.
Fun article.
Jason says: March 11, 2010 @ 12:52 pm
Conley you make some extremely eloquent points about reprints and I couldn’t agree with you more. The idea of abolishing the reserved list and possibly reprinting difficult to acquire cards (perhaps even Power) seems to be gaining steam within the community. A question that will have to be answered is “how should Wizards go about getting these reprints in circulation.”
At first I thought a fun solution would be to insert them into the token slot in new sets, just like Zendikar’s hidden treasures. My only concern there is the possibility of driving up the price of a booster box at retail. Another idea would be to take a cue from Magic Online and release something similar to Master’s Edition sets… I realize that we had Chronicles way back when (I remember buying a box when it came out), but I have faith that they’d do a much nicer job w/it this time around including taking drafting into consideration when choosing cards.
M says: March 11, 2010 @ 1:31 pm
“As the game has survived over the years, the number of pure collectors has gone down in favor of players. ”
Do you have proof? Has there ever been any kind of attempt to determine this? Or is it because all the people you know play instead of collect?
“That said, I don't even think reprints will hurt the value of older cards like Power or dual lands!”
How do you explain what happened to Berserk with “From the Vault: Exiled”?
Adamn says: March 11, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
Great article Conley! I doubt WotC will ever reprint the P9. I guess it’s possible pieces could be reprinted in the From the Vault series. Let’s hope! Keep up the good work dude and keep coming up with deck innovations!
Mr. Hansen says: March 11, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
@M
What happened to berkserk was that when the reprint was released, its price took a fat drop, which will happen to nearly all the reprinted cards.
However, the difference between berserk and dual lands or power is that demand for the older versions of cards,brought on by the cards being used in winning tournament decks, would drive the price back up. If 4 berserk.dec starts cleaning house at vintage tournaments, you better believe that beta berserk will shoot up in price much more rapidly then the exiled berserk.
JShapiro says: March 11, 2010 @ 5:14 pm
@M: I think it was one of the bigwigs at SCG (can I mention them in your forums? Is that kosher?) who wrote a piece about where magic’s been, is going, etc, and he mentioned that while the game is very healthy, the number of collectors is the one thing consistently decreasing. This has also been observed elsewhere. I wouldn’t quite say it’s conventional wisdom, but I can corroborate it with anonymous testimony
As to Berserk, what happened?
Trackback MTGBattlefield says: March 11, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
Breaking Through – Bonding With Vintage…
Your story has been summoned to the battlefield – Trackback from MTGBattlefield…
Thomas Simpson says: March 11, 2010 @ 10:23 pm
I think that wizards should keep their promises. I disagree with re-printing cards that are on the do not re print this card EVER list. I believe to retain a certain trust with it’s players Wizards should keep to their word and not reprint cards on the list or change the list. The fact is they’ve changed the list so they can re-print cards if they want. I do not agree with this. Wizards is the oligarchy for which we abide it’s law’s and rules. That list is our rules. We should be fighting for them. They where put there to protect us…
Conley says: March 12, 2010 @ 12:15 am
Berserk went down initially, then right back up to where it was previously, before FTV came out, maybe coming in at 5 dollars less now than before. No one plays Berserk though, unlike Dual Lands and Power.
And the Reserve list being this sacred promise is total B.S. The Constitution was also a doctrine set in place to protect us and dictate the future, yet we then developed the Bill of Rights and other amendments to rectify mistakes made in the past. You cannot allow a mistake to continue just because you have it in writing.
Besides, the number of people who want the reserve list gone is growing everyday. If the purists dont want to yell at Wizards for removing it, allow us to Vote for it, and then I will happily be the one to blame for keeping the health of the game as my priority.
Mike says: March 12, 2010 @ 12:27 am
Berserk’s price did not actually drop all that much. The foil version is cheaper to get, but the A,B, U versions are still at 80% or more of their original value. And Berserk’s not even really played in anything.
As a player and a dealer, I have yet to formulate an opinion on reserved list/etc. All I know is that I wish to play Vintage, and I currently cannot.
corey says: March 12, 2010 @ 6:35 am
heh heh stick to non-eternal formats. The reason vintage hasn’t changed much brewing wise is cause its fixed. Its been 99% the same card pool for so long that the pillars have been established.
Dosa says: March 12, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
@ Butters…
If demand for originals doesn’t go down (ie price doesn’t go down), then the demand is considered “inelastic”, not “elastic”. Elastic means the demand will go down, and so prices go down. Conley was suggesting that the demand is fairly inelastic, which I don’t think is accurate.
Infact, the demand will go down for originals, along with their prices. The case about foil Baneslayers is flawed because although the different versions do command different prices, the fact that there are cheaper alternatives (the non-foils) is an important factor that isn’t applicable to the reserved list. If there were only foil versions, and no non-foils, then you can bet that the foils would be worth more than they are now.
Of course, the demand for the originals will still be high enough that they will not plummet in price, but you can’t say that the will not go down any significant amount.
Since there are people who don’t care if their duals are re-prints, the demand for the originals WILL go down, and when demand goes down, prices go down.
That being said, as Conley stated, re-printing some reserved cards will make Legacy/Vintage events more accessible to the average player, which needs to be considered.
Personally, I think it’s worth it (mostly because I don’t have thousands of dollars worth of older cards), but the people who do would disagree, and we can’t say that they wouldn’t be negatively affected by re-printing their cards.
To those people, however, who are only concerned about the dollar value of their “investments”, I would say take your money out of Magic cards and invest it in something smarter.
LotusHead says: March 12, 2010 @ 2:42 pm
I am thrilled to see some Vintage content on this site!
Interesting deck!
CoP says: March 14, 2010 @ 3:09 pm
Although I am turkish, I just wanted to mention that your editor did not screw up on lotus-lotuses matter. Yes, “lotuses” is actual plural form of lotus in english, but “loti” is plural form in latin. So your editor is not exactly wrong, only has a stylish linguistic knowledge, which deserves appreciation imho (o=
Scott says: March 28, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
As someone who owns many cards on the restricted list (including 6 of the Power 9), I despise the closing of the loophole. I hate Standard. It’s a shallow format with a tiny cardpool that leads to a 3-deck metagame.
I want to play with my Power, and that means I need people to play with. And that means I need reprints, so more people have access to staples of the Eternal formats.
The content of the list is arbitrary. I mean c’mon, Wizards made a sacred promise to protect the value of my $0.50 Homarid Shaman but not my $50 Forcee of Will? Now that’s a promise worth keeping…